与安德烈晚餐（1981）

我拿到一个幸运签说“别去”
and I got a fortune cookie that said “Don’t go”…
当然了 我承认可能会有点紧张 大概1秒钟
I mean, of course, I admit I might feel a bit nervous for about one second.
可实际上 我还是会去 因为
But in fact, I would go because, I mean…
那趟飞行可能顺利或不顺利
that trip is gonna be successful or unsuccessful…
根据的是 飞机的状况和驾驶员的状态
based on the state of the airplane and the state of the pilot.
而幸运签在这方面是没有发言权的
And the cookie is in no position to know about that.
任何一种
And I mean, you know, it’s the same…
预言 征兆或预兆都是如此
with any kind of, uh, prophecy, or a sign, or an omen.
因为一旦你相信预兆 也就意味着宇宙-
Because if you believe in omens, then that means that the universe —
我都不知道该怎么形容了
I mean, I don’t even know how to begin to describe this.
意味着未来正在向现在
That means that the future is somehow sending messages…
送回信息
backwards to the present.
也就是说未来 在某种意义上必然已经存在了
Which-Which means that the future must exist in some sense already…
就为了传递这些信息
in order to be able to send these messages.
这也就意味着宇宙中的事物 存在皆有目的-给我们启示
And it also means that things in the universe are there for a purpose — to give us messages.
可我认为 宇宙中的事物仅仅是存在而已
Whereas I think that things in the universe are just there.
它们不意味任何东西
I mean, they don’t mean anything.
如果海龟蛋从树上掉下来 在铺路石上摔开花
I mean, you know, if the turtle’s egg falls out of the tree and splashes on the paving stones…
那只是因为那只海龟笨手笨脚- 是个意外
it’s just because that turtle was clumsy– by accident.
靠这个来决定是否派出我的舰队作战
And-And to decide whether to send my ships off to war on the basis of that…
在我看来是个很大的错误
seems a big mistake to me.
好 那你根据什么派出你的舰队呢？
Well, what information would you send your ships to war on?
因为如果一切都无所指涉
Because if it’s all meaningless…
那么相信幸运签
what’s the difference whether you accept the fortune cookie…
还是相信福特基金会的统计数字 又有什么区别呢？
or the statistics of the Ford Foundation?
它似乎压根不重要
It doesn’t seem to matter.
听我说 有些无意义的事实 比如幸运签或者海龟蛋
Well, the meaningless fact of the fortune cookie or the turtle’s egg…
不可能和你分♥析♥的对象有任何关联
can’t possibly have any relevance to the subject you’re analyzing.
可是当一组无意义的事实 以一种科学的方式 被收集和解释
Whereas a group of meaningless facts that are collected and interpreted…
就很有可能有关联了
in a scientific way may quite possibly be relevant.
因为科学及物论最美妙的一点
Because the wonderful thing about scientific theories about things…
就是它们基于可重复实验
is that they’re based on experiments that can be repeated.
嗯
Hmm.
此话不假 沃利
Well, it’s true, Wally.
听随预兆之类的
I mean, you know, following omens and so on…
可能只是一种让我们解脱的方式
is probably just a way of letting ourselves off the hook…
这样我们就不用为自己的行为 承担个人责任
so that we don’t have to take individual responsibility for our own actions.
可是我想说 把自己交给无意识
But I mean, giving yourself over to the unconscious…
也导致你在种种可怕的操控面前十分脆弱
can leave you vulnerable to all sorts of very frightening manipulation.
在所有我参与的工作中 总是有这种危险存在
And in all the work that I was involved in, there was always that danger.
总是有干涉别人生活的疑虑
And there was always that question of tampering with people’s lives…
因为如果让我来领导某个工作坊 那我就部分成了个医生
because if I lead one of these workshops, then I do become partly a doctor…
部分是个理疗师 部分是个神父
and partly a therapist, and partly a priest.
而我不是医生 也不是理疗师或神父
And I’m not a doctor, or a therapist, or a priest.
我们之前说过的这些
And already some of these new monasteries…
新式修道院或者社区什么的
or communities or whatever we’ve been talking about…
已经开始变得制度化
are becoming institutionalized…
恐怕在某些时候 可以说有点法♥西♥斯♥主义
and I guess even in a way, at times, sort of fascistic.
你知道 有种自满的精英偏执在抬头
You know, there’s a sort of self-satisfied elitist paranoia that grows up —
一种“他们”和“我们”的论调- 让人非常不安
a feeling of”them” and “us” — that is very unsettling.
但是 问题是这样的 沃利 正是对科学的过度崇拜
But I mean, uh, the thing is, Wally, I think it’s the exaggerated worship of science…
导致我们走到这一步
that has led us into this situation.
科学被我们看做一种魔法
I mean, science has been held up to us as a magical force…
它会解答一切
that would somehow solve everything.
实际上 恰恰相反 它做的恰恰相反
Well, quite the contrary. It’s done quite the contrary.
它摧毁了一切
It’s destroyed everything.
所以我认为这才是真正的元凶
So that is what has really led, I think…
它导致了眼下这种对科学强烈深切的反♥动♥
to this very strong, deep reaction against science that we’re seeing now…
比如30年代德国放出的纳粹恶魔
just as the Nazi demons that were released in the ’30s in Germany…
很可能就是对某种压抑人的知识
were probably a reaction against a certain oppressive kind of knowledge…
或文化或理性思考的反♥动♥
and culture and rational thinking.
所以我承认我们在谈某种 潜在巨大危险的东西
So I agree that we’re talking about something potentially very dangerous.
可现代科学的危险也并不少
But modern science has not been particularly less dangerous.
是的 我同意
Right. Well, I agree with you.
完全同意
I completely agree.
事实是
No, you know, the truth is…
我知道你所形容的工作 到底哪里困扰我了
I think I do know what really disturbs me about the work you’ve described…
我未必能表达清楚
and I don’t even know if I can express it.
你在工作坊所做的事情 似乎全部重点在于
But somehow it seems that the whole point of the work that you did in those workshops…
如果你追根究底 你探寻它的本质-
when you get right down to it and you ask what was it really about —
我认为它整个意义就在于
The whole point, really, I think…
让你和工作坊里的人
was to enable the people in the workshops, including yourself…
从某些特别的时刻
to somehow sort of strip away every scrap of purposefulness…
抽除了每一丝目的性
from certain selected moments.
这样一来 你们就都能体验
And the point of it was so that you would then all be able to experience…
纯粹的存在
somehow just pure being.
也就是说 你们尝试去探索这样一种处境
In other words, you were trying to discover what it would be like to live for certain moments…
活在某些无为的 脱离目的性的时刻
without having any particular thing that you were supposed to be doing.
而我认为自己单纯的排斥它
And I think I just simply object to that.
我就是不能认同有哪些时刻
I mean, I just don’t think I accept the idea that there should be moments…
是你什么也不会去做的
in which you’re not trying to do anything.
[咯咯笑] 我觉得 行动是我们的天性
[Chuckling] I think, uh, it’s our nature, uh, to do things.
我们就应该有所为
I think we should do things.
我觉得目的性
I think that, uh, purposefulness…
存在于我们根深蒂固的人类基本构造中
is part of our ineradicable basic human structure.
而说我们应该抛开它生活
And to say that we ought to be able to live without it…
就像在说 一棵树要抛去根茎枝蔓一样
is like saying that, uh, a tree ought to be able to live without branches or roots.
可是 如果没有了树枝或树根 它就不会是树了
But — But actually, without branches or roots, it wouldn’t be a tree.
它只能是根木头 你明白我的意思吧？
I mean, it would just be a log. Do you see what I’m saying?
嗯哼
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
换句话说 如果我坐在家里 又没什么事要做
I mean, in other words, if I’m sitting at home and I have nothing to do…
那我很自然的就会找本书来看
well, I naturally reach for a book.
只坐在那儿有什么好的 无所事事？
I mean, what would be so great about just sitting there and, uh, doing nothing?
它显得很荒唐
It just seems absurd.
如果黛比也在呢？
And if Debby is there?
这没任何区别
Well, that’s just the same thing.
我的意思是 是否真的存在这么一说
I mean, is there really such a thing as, uh…
两个人纯粹的共处 什么事也不做？
two people doing nothing but just being together?
那样他们就能
I mean, would they simply then…
呃 “相关联”了吗 借一句我们常说的话
be, uh, “relating,” to use the word we’re always using?
那到底意味着什么？
I mean, what would that mean?
你看 我们要不就会交谈
I mean, either we’re gonna have a conversation…
要不就去扔垃圾
or we’re going to, uh, carry out the garbage…
要不就做随便什么事 单独地或一起做
or we’re going to do something, separately or together.
你能明白我说的吗？
I mean, do you see what I’m saying?
我是说 仅仅是坐在那儿到底有什么意义？
I mean, what does it mean to just, uh, simply, uh, sit there?
它让你不安
That makes you nervous.
是啊 为什么不呢？ 它对我来说就是显得很荒谬
Well, well, why shouldn’t it make me nervous? It just seems ridiculous to me.
很有意思 沃利
That’s interesting, Wally.
你知道么 当我去西部藏区的拉达克时 在一个农场待过一个月
You know, when I went to Ladakh in western Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month…
那里的人晚上过来喝茶时 没人说一句话
well, there, you know, when people come over in the evening for tea, nobody says anything.
除非有什么要说的 不过几乎从来没有过
Unless there’s something to say, but there almost never is.
他们就坐在那儿 喝他们的茶 而这似乎并不让他们心烦
So they just sit there and drink their tea, and it doesn’t seem to bother them.
你看 沃利 总是跃跃欲试 总是有事要做的问题在于
I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally, with always being active and doing things…
极有可能在做尽一切的同时
is that I think it’s quite possible to do all sorts of things…
内心却已彻底死去
and at the same time be completely dead inside.
你做了所有的一切 可你做它们
I mean, you’re doing all these things, but are you doing them…
是因为你真的感到一种迫切的冲动呢
because you really feel an impulse to do them…
还是仅仅因为机械的习惯呢？ 就如我们之前所说的那样
or are you doing them mechanically, as we were saying before?
因为我确实认为 如果你只是机械地活着
Because I really do believe that if you’re just living mechanically…
那你必须得改变你的生活了
then you have to change your life.
你看 当你年轻的时候 你总是出去玩
I mean, you know, when you’re young, you go out on dates all the time.
去跳舞什么的 你无拘无束 逍遥自在
You go dancing or something. You’re floating free.
然后突然有一天 你发现自己恋爱了
And then one day suddenly you find yourself in a relationship…
世界一下就停转了
and suddenly everything freezes.
这对于工作同样适用
And this can be true in your work as well.
当然 如果你真的心中真的有活力
And I mean, of course, if you’re really alive inside…
那当然就不成问题
then of course there’s no problem.
我是说 如果你和某人住在一间小小的屋子里
I mean, if you’re living with somebody in one little room…
生活延续在你和这个人之间
and there’s a life going on between you and the person you’re living with…